tv Latinos and the Civil Rights Movement CSPAN August 28, 2017 9:24pm-10:55pm EDT
it doesn't help our state employees. we need this budget now and as soon as possible. >> and i'm here to just make a statement about what we need from our leaders in washington, d.c. what we're looking at in ohio, we need to take care of our infrastructure. that's a primary issue facing not only ohio but across the united states. we need washington to focus in on infrastructure. our roads are crumbling and we need trump and our legislators to start focusing on that issue. >> voices from the road on c-span. you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend, on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook@c-span history. next on "alerted lectures i
history," oliver rosales talks about latinos and the civil rights movement. his class is an hour and a half. >> tonight we're going to be talking about the delano grape strike within the bigger, larger context of united states history, labor history and civil rights history. in terms of logistics, how the evening will go, i'm going to talk a little bit about the topic. i'm going to say a few words about my own research, how i came to pursue a topic in civil rights history. and then we're also going to talk about a document that i had you read before coming to class, the plan of delano. we're also going to talk about oral histories, the way that the next hour or so will progress. and i want to start off by just saying a few general remarks, things that i hope you take away from the course of the evening. and i'm going to be
argumentative and try to be bold in my states. when we study the delano grape strike, it is one of the most significant, important labor and civil rights movements for not only mexican-american, latinos, but also filipinos, in the 20th century. the united farm workers conducted the most successful boycott in all of u.s. labor history, since the beginning of this country, right? so again, it's a really landmark, significant event on a national and even an international scale. another takeaway that i want you to leave with tonight is, you know, this is a united states history survey course. and if you think about everything that you've learned up until this point, much of it has been focused on the american south, right? we started off talking about the end of slavery, the reconstruction period, about how slaves were integrated as free
men and free women into the society, right? we talked about northern industrialism. but we haven't talked a lot about the american west. we talked a little bit about the conquest of the west, the incorporation of native americans into reservations. we haven't talked a lot about the american west. that's one way i want you to think about tonight's lecture, that we're trying to insert the american west into stories about the united states in the 20th century. in terms of civil rights history, we've been talking about civil rights in the last couple of weeks. last week we talked about two things. we talked about the cold war as this struggle between the united states and the soviet union or between capitalism and communism. but we connected this to the story of civil rights, because the two things occur simultaneously. i made the case, as have many historians, that the cold war created a context for people of
color, african-americans, to progress in terms of their rights under the government, because communist countries were using the conditions of black people as propaganda, right? so you would have both the soviet union and china putting out propaganda, highlighting how poorly people of color were treated domestically within the united states. so one of the response by policymakers was, hey, let's make sure we have civil rights for african-americans, right? but again, much of that history we talked about last week, as i said, focused on african-americans, focused on the american south, and not necessarily the american west. again, as you leave tonight, and again, a lot of you for your oral history assignments talked about mexican immigration, some of you talked about the farm labor movement, know that what you're doing is a part of a larger effort by historians to capture the story of the american west. how does the story of the american west relate to big,
broad themes within united states history, okay? and i want to start the evening by telling you a story and trying to, you know, unmask myself a little bit. as a historian, and how i came to do my own research. and i'll start by telling you a story of this man. so many of you will go on to transfer to university. you might find yourself taking classes at csu bakersfield, down in bakersfield. you'll be in the walter stern library. that's who this man is, water ste walter stern. he was a democrat, very progressive, had the support of labor unions here in the central valley where he represented for over like two decades. and so he was getting an award like in the late 1970s. upon receiving the award, he
equipp quipped, he said, this award really doesn't matter because a hundred years from now, only two names are going to be remembered from bakersfield, and those 'two names of course are buck owens and cesar chavez. i found that absolutely hilarious, because, you know, many of you are from kern county, maybe a few of you are from l.a. or the san francisco bay area. bakersfield has a reputation of being kind of a cultural back water, always dwarfed by san francisco or the state capital. his contributions to history were marginal, dwarfed by buck owe witness and cesar chavez. a few lectures ago we talked about how the great depression was solved by new deal policies, right? we talked about the triple a, the agriculture adjustment act and the federal government
sending money into farming communities, agriculture communities to stop production and people find themselves out of work. what do they do, do they stay in these southern states? no, a lot of them join the migrant trail going to work in california, right? so buck owens, as a country music singer, if you've heard of him, kind of symbolized the story of the okies, their west ward movement, and their upward mobility, right? so buck owens is an international renowned country music singer, or at least he was until a few years ago, he passed away about a decade ago. his music, along with other country music artists, symbolized something called the bakersfield sound, which different did i have differentin
bakersfield and nashville. you see him on the cover of "time" magazine in 1969. the way that pundits and journalists referred to chavez is that he symbolized the awakening of latino peoples in the united states or the awakening of mexican-american more specifically, not puerto ricans or cubans. the way journalist would happen refer to people of mexican descent living in the united states, they called them the sleeping giant. what does that really mean, the sleeping giant? well, what it meant at the time, and some would argue that it has application for today, is that latinos aren't necessarily politically active, they don't tend to be involved in civic affairs, right? that was a stereotype at the time. chavez was absolutely blowing this up. the movement of farm workers,
the people at the bottom of the society, right, were suddenly becoming engaged in fighting for their rights, wages, working conditions, but also mobilizing for politicians, right? we'll talk maybe a little bit about this later. i know some of you mentioned this in your oral history. one of the best friends of the chavez family is the kennedy family, right? starting with john and then robert and their children. so my point there is, chavez is challenging that stereotype, that latinos are the sleeping giant. there is this awakening of latinos in the 1960s. so again, this polemic that stern is talking about, when i was a younger -- when i was a college student just like you and i started to read history, this polemic shaped my learning as a student of history, right? and when i went to graduate school, i went to graduate school at uc santa barbara, and
they make you read a lot of books in graduate school, and i'll talk about what i read in graduate school and how it relates to what we're talking about tonight. a lot of you did family histories. i kind of feel it's maybe unfair that maybe you don't know a little bit about my family, right, and why i'm making you do this assignment. my mother's family, this is a picture of my mother's family, her mother is one of the babies that's sitting on the lap. they were displaced from mexico after 1910 during the mexican revolution, as were many mexican families who wanted to avoid the problems of a war-torn country, right? this is an image that was taken across the border. you can see they're very well-dressed. this would be the early 1920s. and this is a photograph later in the 1940s of the descendants of that same family. my grandmother is the woman in the upper left hand corner.
and when they came to the united states, they came as farm workers, right? they went to southern california, worked in oranges there for many years. then eventually my grandmother migrated up to the central valley where we are today. and she married my grandfather, and they lived in button willow. i don't know if any of you know your central valley geography. button willow is about 20 miles west of bakersfield. and it was a company town. i don't know if you know what a company town is. you have to think back a few lectures, right? company towns were small towns that were more or less founded by companies and their workers, right? so button willow was a product of the miller luxe company. i actually mentioned the miller luxe to you in one of our earlier lectures. this was a company based on out of san francisco. in the 19th century, early 20th
century, they owned much of the land and they raised cattle. my grandfather worked as an accountant for that company. that's the sum of the story of how my mother's family came to settle in the central valley. and again, they had a connection to agriculture. and i'll come back in a little bit, maybe say a little bit more about my grandfather. my father's side of the family, they were not displaced by the mexican revolution, but they migrated as railroad workers. so again, if you think back to some of our earlier lectures, when we talked about railroads, right, the growth of railroads during the industrial age, late 19th century, i mentioned that the railroads not only went east to west, but they went north to south. that's absolutely critical, right? so you have the railroads going from chicago to nebraska and kansas, down to el paso. and then south into mexico, right? and there was no border prior to
1924. it was a porous border. so my family crossed in the 1870s, and then the sons would follow their fathers, right? and then they wound up working at the southern pacific railroad station, which is in southeast bakersfield. it's not operative today, it's basically like an historical relic. there's lots of folks in the historical society in bakersfield that wants to make that old depot on sumner and baker into a historical monument but there is not a lot of money for that right now. if you go there, again, it's a historical relic. this is the men who worked on the railroad. i'm not going to try to point out my grandfather, i can see him but there's a lot of men up there. that's my father's side. one of the themes that emerged for me is that my mother's side, you have the connections to agriculture, and then through my father's side you kind of had a more urban, a more industrial
history, right? so that's two themes i started to see. but i also asked myself, you know, this doesn't fit within that polemic i was talking about at the start of the lecture, right? this isn't okie history. this isn't necessarily history connected to the united farm workers. i had to inevitably ask myself, does the history matter at all? i came to find out through my research that it absolutely did, that's what i want to unpack for you. let me explain a little bit about how i came to that process. after i graduated from college at berkeley, i started graduate school, first at cal state bakersfield, then eventually i traveled to uc santa barbara. i was always attracted to colognial history but i couldn' imagine myself researching the records of puritans, on even slave ship records. i wanted to do something that
was maybe closer to home, that i could connect to. i was always fascinated by the civil rights movement. we talked about that last week. the image you see is 1963. martin luther king jr., the march on washington for jobs and justice. your textbook talks about this. martin luther king jr. as a community organizer got his start, if you will, after the brown versus board of education decision, right? so you remember that the brown decision overturned the plessy decision which had sanctioned racial desegregation. and earl warren ruled that segregation was inherently unequal and created an inferiority complex among
children, african-american boys and girls. enter king, and the southern christian leadership conference. and they started to try to integrate society in the south. one of their first targets was bussing, right? they used a boycott, right, this is one of the themes i'm trying to establish for you, they used a boycott of the southern bussing -- excuse me, the bussing system in montgomery, alabama, right? you had large numbers of african-americans who rode the bus every day to go to work. what the acl did and king did is they encouraged those african-americans not to ride the bus. what did that do? it affected the bottom line of those bussing companies and they couldn't segregate anymore because they were losing money. that was a major victory for king and his organization. and from 1956 they went on to try to integrate other industries and places in the south. it culminated in 1964, '65, when
the federal government is going to pass the first civil rights legislation that really had some teeth in 1964, and then the voting rights act in 1965. so as interesting and as fascinating as i found that history, as somebody from bakersfield, as somebody from the american west, i kind of view this as another country, right? i had never been to the south. the story is very black and white. i had some trouble connecting to it even if i found it interesting and fascinating to read. other things that really got me going as a student of history were the stories of malcolm x, right, and the struggle for black people to secure rights and liberties and economic se self-sufficiency in the north. as fascinating as malcolm x is, it's a northeastern story. he's a muslim. i'm a lapsed catholic.
i had some trouble connecting to the story even if i found it interesting or found it fascinating. for the purposes of our class tonight and your notes, one of the things you might note about the difference between malcolm x and martin luther king jr., and this relates to cesar chavez, of course, martin king was a practitioner of nonviolence, right? so the boycott itself is a strategy of protest through nonviolence, right? king believed in the power of love, right? and almost like moral persuasion, that you can shame your enemy into changing their ways. malcolm x had a different philosophy of protest. he believed that if you were being attacked violently by the state or by the ku klux klan or by racist neighbors, that you were perfectly within your rights to defend yourself, by violence if necessary, right? so again, there is another dichotomy there that i found interesting but again, i had some trouble relating to.
as i progressed in graduate school, i was fortunate enough in the last ten years to read some books that helped to really broaden my perspective and horizons about how the story of the american west fit within the civil rights narrative that we've been talking about the last two weeks. i wanted to lay out the themes for you. they connect in concrete ways to the work you guys are doing in your oral history projects. so randy shaw, in 2007, 2008, published a book called "beyond the fields." at this time in 2008, 2009, i had just finished some of my coursework at uc santa barbara. i came back to bakersfield to do some research. i actually got to teach a class at the university. and so i assigned some of the scholars that i'm going to mention right now. and his book was definitely one of them. he had a great thesis in it. it was basically that some of
the most progressive social justice movements in recent history across the united states have been directly linked to the united farm workers. when you look at the lgbtq movement, justice for janitors, the growth of latino california politics, all these organizers were trained first in the unity farm workers in delano. that's the brilliance of this book, when you're looking at the legacy of the farm worker movement, you have to connect it to these other social justice movement struggles. that was a great, great text. frank bartike, like shaw, they're not historians per se, but they were activists. these were people who were community organizers who went on to write books about the work that they had done in their career. so bartike's story was super interesting. he was a berkeley student, anglo man, fluent in spanish. and eventually kind of dropped out of school to pursue farm
labor organizing and farm worker itself. he was very attracted to the union. and he helped to organize farm workers in the salinas valley where the ufw also had a presence. and this book, "trampling at the vintage," it's 800 pages, really, really long. but some of the more interesting facets of the book that people are really, you know, attracted to, is one of the tensions that exists within the farm worker movement story, right? and that is the tension between a union and strike breakers, or between a union and what a lot of you talked about in your papers, undocumented labor, right? we talk a little bit about the rucera program, a lot of you are descendants of ruceras. it's the world war ii program that encouraged guest workers to
fill the labor shortage during the war. the program winded up lasting really through the 1960s. and it made organizing farm workers very difficult, right? it's very hard to form a union that is effective when growers can easily bring in undocumented people or ruceras to break strikes. that was a problem, a tension, as i said, between the farm worker movement in history and then the stories of undocumented peoples. and again, a lot of you talk about this in your oral histories and i have many students talk about it. bartike's book is one of the first texts to bring that to light. two other books that i think are important in trying to understand this history. miriam paul, she's former journalist for "the los angeles times." her book, "the union of their dreams," interviews through oral history a handful of people who were key activists within the ufw. it's a multiracial group, she
interviews filipinos, mexicans, whites, it's a diverse book. she captures their story and tries to argue that in order to understand the history of the union, he need the stories of ordinary people, right? that's one reason i have you do this oral history assignment. it's because the story of the farm worker movement is much broader than just ceasar chavez. there's ordinary people who made it movement go. that's what her book is designed to do. she also wrote one of the first biographies, a full biography ofs of s cesar chavez from birth to death. two books i read that are critical to understanding the diverse legacy of the farm worker movement, one i really like, "to march for others: the black freedom struggle and the united farm workers," this look takes a looks at the alliances
between african-americans and the ufw. i've had some students talk about it in the past. the black panther party was one of the biggest supporters of the united farm workers, right? they helped run their boycotts in california communities, especially in the bay area up in oakland. her book kind of walks you through how african-americans interpreted and aligned themselves and in some cases didn't align themselves with the united farm workers. it's a brilliant, brilliant book. another text, "from the jaws of victory," the real contribution of this text in my mind is he chronicles the history of the boycott as a strategy, right? so when you think about the united farm workers and the strategies of protest that they used, there's really two that are defining. the strike and the boycott. a strike, to give you a definition, is to, you know, not go on to the work site, right? to try to keep people from crossing your picket line,
right? that's how you affect your employer, to give you higher wages. you have to convince people not to cross that picket line, to not go to work. one of the more influential strategies was the boycott. so that's what his book talks about, how the boycott emerged as a strategy. what is a boycott? to refresh your memories, it's when you prevent the consumption, right, of a particular product. in this case it was grapes. all of you go outside of this classroom and you look across the fields, what do you see, right? grape fields. do the people of delano and kern county consume all those grapes? absolutely not. it's a world market. this is what the ufw did, which was absolutely brilliant, is they sent poor farm workers from delano to new york, to chicago, to canada, to europe, where all
the marketplace was for california table grapes. and they went to stores, they went to consumers, and they convinced them not to buy those grapes, because if you did, what were you reip forcing. so his text talk abouts the evolution of the boycott strategy. so again to kind of recap that, these are some of the books i read in graduate school. that i liked a lot. but still i had some trouble relating to it because as i mention with my own family, my father's side we weren't farm workers and i didn't say this about my mother's side but my grandmother i remember asking my mother about this. and my grandmother in her old age. she was absolutely not a supporter of cesar cha she has and the farm worker market. she used to cross the picket line at safe way all the time to buy grapes. according to to her no one was going to tell her where she
could and couldn't shop. again i know this from your old history, many of you talk to people who were supporters of the efw. involved in the union. others who were some cases hostile to the union. and i think we'll talk about that maybe towards the end of class. but i want to talk about my own research. i want pay painting the picture about the research that's out there. and how i carved out a small space for myself as a historian researching labor and civil rights in the west. so as a graduate student, one of the defining things you have to do is find primary sources. which is what you're going it oral history. you have a primary source in the perp you talk to. as i started to dig around i found some very cool fascinating stuff. i want to share a few pieces with you. this particular image comes from downtown bakersfield in 1965.
and this is a memorial march in solidarity with martin loouter king jr. he's assassinated in 1968. this is 1965. it's a march in bakersfield to sew solidarity and support for what's happening in the south. what happened at this event in bakersfield too was a recognition of what was happening in the county. not only with the strike but for a broader agenda of civil rights reform that was happening locally. so to get a thousand people in the street is not easy, right? there was an organization locally called the coalition for civic unity. they organized this strike. they got the thousand bodies in the street. and so as i started to rerge this organization more, i uncovered like a treasure-trove of material that this organization this civic unity movement had been in bakersfield since the late 1940s and had
been vaktive in organizing people of color to integrate bakersfield in a variety of ways. and i'll highlight a few. since the 1940s sdp the 1950s. and that was fascinating to me. because when i had studied i said civil rights history in the west, all you really hear about is the story of cesar chavez. you don't find out there was a deeper concurrent movement that was happening on the ground locally. and what i argue in my research is that in order to understand the true legacy of civil rights history in this part of the american west, central california. where the ufw was active. you need to understand the connection to the local urban history that i'll describe to you. so as i mention, the kccw. promoted racial integration. that was one of the big agendas. so what exactly is racial integration like that's just a
term. let's give it meaning. let me give it meaning by talking about school. that's the easiest way to do it. so one of the chapters in my dissertation had to do with the desegregation of the bakersfield city school district. i mention this to you last week that the school district today is the largest elementary school district in the state of california. it's a very large district. and this particular photograph comes from po to mac. 1953. you see the teacher and you see the students. and what do you notice about the students if you look at their faces, right? . they tend to be children of color, right? a lot of african american boys and girls and some mexicans sprinkled throughout. my father, that's a why i show the picture. is the boy on the top with the
two patches right here on the breast. that's my father. and my father had seven siblings and they all went to bakersfield schools 6789 i started talking to my aunts and uncles. and i looked at their yearbooks. it was an absolutely wonderful experience. i knew what racial segregation was. but to really see it in the photographs was very powerful experience. so again my family attended predominantly racially segregated schools. black and lat toe. from the 1930s to the 50s. if you think about the date this is 53. this is prior to the brown decision. this also is california. and we talked about the men dez case. remember the case we mentioned this last week. southern california, 1947, 48. mexican schools were over turned arguing you couldn't segregate
mexican kids because they were technically white by the census. this is the thing i learned in the process of my dissertation. that separated the story of the south from theb= west. so when you're looking at segregation in the american south. it's called segregation by law. so that's where you have the drinking fountains for white and black. the signs, right? or you have hard segregation was local ordnances. you didn't get that out west. it's what scholars call de facto segregation. i can write the terms on the board. analytically they might be useful to you. as you do some research. de facto versus. segregation by custom. so it's by practice by will. what i found in doing research is that that's kind of not true. that there were very much public
policies that were in place. that segregated kids of color. one of them obviously is labor. so you tend to live near your job. and if your job doesn't hire people of color or only hires people of color, you're going to live in a certain part of town. that's one commonality that separated blacks and latinos in bakersfield frs hiring practices. another that was critical was something called racial k covenants. these were agreements between people who were buying property and selling property that again you would not sell your property to a person of color. if you were to sell the deed on your house. there were certain parts of town that people of color were absolutely not allowed to buy property in. so as i dug a little bit deeper i started to find this in
bakersfield. this is another primary source that i unearthed in my research process. at the library from downtown bakersfield. the brilliant thing about this particular map is it shows you the city limits of bakersfield. so the city limits are the hard lines there and the white dots that are inside the dots symbolizes 20 persons. you can see the black dots are people on the outside of the city. and so one of the points that i mention when e talk about the migration was that the population of california but especially the central valley, grew dramatically in the late 1930s and early 1940s. you had oak not just white. but black. and also mexicans. the chavez family was misplace and had jointed the migrant
trail into california in the 30s. so as i said the population grew dramatically in bakersfield in the 30s and 40s. i think this census map captures a little bit of that. my favorite part of this map is i know it might be hard to see. so i'll walk over here. this right here, does anyone no what this street is? i would be very impressed. anybody know what the street is? >> union. >> very good. absolutely. and then do you know what this street is? california. oh you guys are really good. you know your geography. now days, that part of town if you can go to union and california in your mind. like, what does it look like. you tend to have poverty, motels, prostitution, drugs. what was that part of town? historically. this was the african american
enclave. and you can see it's just right outside the city limits. but the city fathers right the city counsel deliberately excluded this part of town because it was known as the black part of town. they were not allowed to buy property within city limits. part of my research looked at the struggle of that community to join the city. what are some of the benefits in being part of city? there are certain tax benefits that might go alone. services. suer lines. fire department. police. all the things become civil rights struggles for ordinary people living on the outskirts of bakersfield. to go back to the map if you look across the river, that's oil dell. i'm not going to talk a lot about oil dell other than a few points. i remember growing up as a kid, i didn't go to oil dale.
why didn't you go? well you ask your older brothers or uncles or parents and they tell you, well, they're not very kind to people who might look like you. oil dale had a reputation as being what they called a sunset town. meaning if you were a person of color, you didn't let the sun go down on you in the community. taft also a sunset community. you didn't want to be caught there after dark if you were a person of color. particularly african american. in fact, the first african american didn't attend north high until 1962. that's one of the things i learned. had a very active kkk chapter. my point is this is some of the things i was unearths through trying to study labor and civil rights. it was connected to this deeper history of racial segregation and also racial integration. so as i said, going back to this slide. the civic unity movement was the
flag ship organization to promote racial integration in the labor market in the housing market in bakersfield. they were also some of the biggest supporters of cesar chavez and the farm worker movement. early on when the farm workers movement was a fledging union. barely surviving off donations of other people. you have the urban based movement with lawyers, attorneys. people who had diz posable income channelling support to at that time the national farm workers association. a couple other points i want to share with you. just to get you thinking about this place before we shift to other things. i mentioned to you in a previous lecture when we talked about the oakky. lang was a famous photographer. she worked for the government. capturing of what was happening
to agricultural workers. she snapped the famous migrant mother image on stamps and whatnot. she spent time in southeast bakersfield. so the photographs i'll show you now come from her kind of chronicling what was happening to the african american migrant population in that part of town. these are students as i recall the caption read walking home from the current high school district. if you look around you can see what that area looked like. no paved roads, in some cases there was very poor sewage. poor sanitation. and you have the communities that were pretty much entirely racially segregated. so that gives you insight into what the communities might have looked like prior to them joining the city limits. i really like these as well. this one shows you really what's essential hi like a shack. that would have been rented by african american cotton workers and cotton wood.
which again is in the southeast part of bakersfield. and when i see these images as a historian the thing that jumps out to me is wow, the condition of migrant farm workers for african americans hasn't changed that much since the end of slavery. even by 1940s. the standards of living are very poor. and so that's a way that as a historian i began to connect the story of was co. or the story of southeast bakersfield to the story of african americans in the american south. i started to see a real connection there. this is an up close blow up of the previous slide tla i showed you with the little boy standing in front of the wood shack there. this particular image gives you a sense of what the streets might have looked like. very impovished communities.
again there's a point of comparison. trying to analyze poverty. again on both sides of the border. like a will the of you were talking about how the migration to the united states was a story of mobility upward. i don't discount that. in some cases, the mobility takes generations to actually achieve. it doesn't occur with the migrants but maybe their children. so i want to talk about the war on poverty. because again this is another subject that's very large within u.s. history. that's one of the points i'm trying to get you thinking about today. how the story of the farm workers is connected to broader currents within u.s. history. so i told you i talk about school integration. in my dissertation and the battle to integrate the schools in the bcsd. i have a section that deals with the war on poverty.
1964, linn don juan s towards the end of his life, john kennedy was becoming very progressive. he was early years as president, very hesitant in some ways to overly support civil rights actors. but he definitely moved towards that prior to his assassination. when john son comes into office he tries to bring forth the spirit that kennedy wanted to enact. launching a war on poverty. so when you're looking across the united states in 1960s. it's a period of economic growth for certain segments of society. but for others it's absolutely not. johnson had a belief that if we're the richest country in the
world we shouldn't have people lifing in some of the conditions i have described to you. in kern county the same organization that i was talking about the kern civic unity movement was a coalition of many different organizations. one of those organizations was called the community service organization. and the community service organization is where chavez cut his teeth as an organizer. before he organized farm workers. and so there was an organization of the cse in bakersfield. a statewide organization. also spread beyond california as well. and the cso was an early organization working through the civic unity movement to gain federal money to fight poverty. how do you do that. it's a concept. how dwrou fight poverty. go into the communities i described to you and trying to report on the conditions that
people actually lived in. so this fellow right here is the man named jes se and he was active within the cso. and he was a community organizer in southeast bakersfield. he did a variety of things from getting ordinary people to vote. getting them to attend city council meetings to be aware of how local policies were affecting them. when they got federal dollars to fight poverty. they were able to go in there and do concrete programs to try to improve the living conditions of the people of the southeast bakersfield. and some of the biggest supporters of the union of the farm workers movement. to kind of dial this back to what we were talking about, at the beginning of the segment of the lecture. the farm worker movement we have talked about it tonight. but we haven't talked about it tonight. as i was trying to unpack what the story is before we talk
about the plan of delano, as i said chavez mai dprated to california and joined the migrant circuit because of the depression. a lot of you know what the migrant circuit is. you follow the crops essentially. he became involved with the organization the cso community service organization. where he cut his teeth as a community organizers. it proved resistant to actually wanting to organize farm workers. so he left the cso in the early 1960s and formed a new organization called the national farm workers association. delores huerta she has her office in downtown bakersfield. probably the most prominent latino american living today. still doing great work. was a cofounder of the organization. it wasn't a union yet. they weren't quite ready when they were founded to actually
start a union. in 1965, i know some of you know this history, the philippines are going on strike. on september 8, 1965. and chavez and the nfwa join the fill p philippine on the strike. to walk out on the fields in protest of higher wages. the strike will last five long years. along the way i told you the beginning of the lecture that the strategy shifts, right, from the strike to the boycott of grapes. but it takes five long years of farm workers organizing themselves, boycotting grapes, protesting, trying to get consumers to not consume delano table grapes to really get the industry to finally agree to sign contracts. that does happen in 1970.
so that's the kind of short history of the vfw. i want to spend a few minutes talking about valdez and the plan for delano. the document that i had you read. because i think this document captures some of the spirit of the time. the spirit of the 1960s. particularly when we're talking about mexican americans. and i want to say a few words about louis before i open this up to discussion. valdez is from the central valley. he went onto attend college in the san francisco bay area. and when the strike was beginning in 1965, he made this conscious decision to leave the bay area in his education up there to come to delano. and work with chavez. and his contributions were many. beyond this document he was the founder of our farm workers
theater. which helped to really gal voe vo niz the farm workers union. if you're on a strike line all day, you need something to entertain yourself. so people would perform skits. it was a way to communicate a message. many farm workers were illiterate. they didn't read. they tried to capture why it was important for farm workers to organize. later on in his life in career, he would go onto be a famous play write. he also directed something kul call called. a. he's still doing really great work. he also coauthored the plan for delano with chavez. and it's a very short document. and i went ahead and drafted a few questions. i want to throw them out there
and open it up for conversation and comment that you might have about that particular document. and how it connects to your oral history. so, these are five questions that i posed about the document. i asked what specific reforms were being proposed by the union. a little bit of context in 1966, if you read the beginning of the document, the document was drafted during the march to sacramento. when the union was marching to sacramento to pressure the governor and the legislature again to pay attention to the struggles of farm workers. chavez again when we're talking about a march, mlk jr. had done marchs in the south. and india. cesar knew about these things. he's implementing non-violent protests in the valley.
what is injustice mean in the document? that word comes up repeatedly. i asked what is revolution mean in the context of the document. religion. what role does religion play in the movement. and finally. how does the plan deal with other ethnicities. the document mentioned this. let me open it up to you guys who read the text coming into class. what were some of your reactions to the text? >> don't be shy. yeah? >> i noticed he kind of implies that they're not treat as humans. dehumanized throughout the whole document. >> i would argue that dehumanization is absolutely a theme that he's trying to e list sit in the text. that might raise other questions that many of you could tease out in your oral history.
like how are farm workers dehumanized. what specifically makes farm labor almost an inhumane job. the way that's it's being described. that's a question that we can consider. what are other general reactions to the text? >> you talk about them actually creating an understanding by saying they're going to have a change in the whole, e i guess the workplace. but don't actually change it. they just talk about it. and after that they just still treat them the same and nothing changes. >> remember this is 1966. a specific moment. your question or comment is related to -- ashly i'm sorry. your question about what are the changes that are actually being called for. it's really important to ground that in some kind of specific. one thing they're doing is
looking for recognition. looking for growers to acknowledge there was a union. that's something growers didn't want to do. and that's one change that they're trying to call for. recognition from their employer. that there is a union among farm workers. >> they actually have a chance to also join them in the whole. >> yeah that people can join the union and employers will negotiate with the union. very good. what are other reactions to the text? so far we have on the table again the idea of workers being dehumanized and also one of the changes that they're calling for is union recognition. what are other reactions to the text. >> one thing i did -- i was reading. i read that it said that they tried to get everything pretty much passed by without using violence and stuff like that. one thing i did realize what i was doing the oral presentation
when i was talking to the person i interviewed, she said that she was actually one of the workers that would go work while they were striking. and one thing they would do is they would throw rocks the strikers would throw rocks and pretty much insult them for working. >> this is a really important issue. there are a few people who talk about this. during the strike phase in 66 was before the boycott, you would -- if you go out in the field and social security. >> reporter: imagine like a picket line of not only farm workers but college kids. from out of town. trying to prevent workers from going into the work site. how do you do that. you can shout, you can scream, you can try to convince the workers come join our struggle. many people don't want to join the struggle. they want to work. they have to feed their families. they're not certain. they're scared. a lot of people talk about fear.
here's another point about the violence. i know i have students talk about this. many people who participated in the movement, like many social movements of the era, were compelled to use tactics that were in some cases violent or destroying property. this is why cesar was really important. he held together a union based on non-violence. if in fact people within his movement were being violent, right? he was able to pressure them to stop that behavior. how it he do this? through the fast. so he didn't vent this tactic. probably the most famous practitioner of this in modern history would be gandi. he decolonized india from the british empire. that was a violent struggle. one of the ways he kept the peace is said i'm going to fast until death.
unless my followers stop being violent. they need to be peaceful to the colonizers. let the colonizer leave out the door willingingly. you don't have to throw rocks or bombs. i think what you're hinting at is a reality during the strike phase. it's very tense to be on the strike line. and violence works both ways. a lot of people in this room in your oral history talked about violence from the police. from the sheriffs. from growers, right? it goes both ways. again chavez through non-violence wanted to keep the peace. and again it was a struggle for him. he did many fasts throughout his career. very good point though. other reactions to the text? these are very good so far. other reactions? don't be shy. yeah? >> i was wondering you know
when he passed away. chavez only had an eighth grade education. when you walk into his office, books. so he was highly educated and highly literate. and to answer your question, non-violence was not being passive. non-violence is a philosophical strategy. it's shaming your enemy to change their ways. again cesar was not pass aif at
all. the ufw was not passive at all they wanted to engage the public engage the media to get people to cover this story. this was why internationally people today are studying delano. it was the special moment of activism. for that sleeping giant that we talked about. let me also complicate that by talking about fear, again. i got this from a lot of oral history. is for some families, right, who were undocumented. or for some families who were not part of the union, fear was a real driver of them during the era. they didn't want to go join the union because there was a fear of being punished by your employer. in some cases people talk about the fear of being assaulted or accosted physically. it tended to work more at least with the oral history that i read from students over the years, where again they really
feared being fired. or deported. for joining the union. those are the big fears that people who were my students who lived this history to their families that's something they reported. i made this comment in your papers for those who talk about fear as a theme to focus on. because this goes for all workers in the country. when you look at the history of labor. we talk about the homestead strike in the 1890s. workers took over karn gee steel works. what happened to that strike, it was crushed by td employer. so again the idea of joining a union and the fear of doing that, it took tremendous courage to do it. but at the same time i understand the other side. i understand why people went to work. my grandmother was not a supporter of the union. she took it as a point a pride as a consumer to not be told by
anybody where she could and couldn't shop. that was her outlook and world view. these are very good comments. others. there must be other issues. again i have questions on the board. maybe i can pick on a few of you. so i'll let me start with my si. you had a chance to work with some students maybe in your tutor sessions for the class. could you maybe say a few remarks about what are some of the issues that you saw students engaging with? >> i know a big part of the chavez movement was the fact that violence did happen while on strike. that was a big part of most of the people that came and talked to me and the things that we discussed about it. and that also happened with some of my family members when they were -- my grandparents when they were working they were kind of assaulted by some of the people that were on strike. but they still realize that they were doing something that was for the good of all of them and they appreciated that.
and there was other stuff that people were talking about especially the document was about religion and how they didn't only include just catholics since they were mexican. but they included all the other religions. >> absolutely. i'll address those two points. on the violence point, why was chavez so committed to non-violence? in part because people within the movement some of them were pressuring to be mf more violent. as a leader of a social movement, he has to be very principled. in saying i am not going to have violence within my movement. that's -- he's not you knee in that. most leaders of social movements progressive movements again the question of violence versus non-violence was a big dilemma among social movement groups. chavez is known as being one of the more successful practitioners of non-violent at least in the united states.
that might be a theme in your paper. the other point you mentioned. could you refresh me. >> religion. and they didn't exclude any other religions. >> this is in the text. so another cool thing that i encourage you to do. go to la paz. there it's a great monument that notes jews, christians, and muslims. because jews christians and muslims were part of the farm worker movement. from the organizers to the participants. and again if you read the plan, it's very clear that this is an movement. not juts a catholic movement. it was not an exclusive organization. it was brought together by people of different faiths and different ethnic groups different racial groups. that's what made the farm worker movement very unique. in some ways in the 1960s. other movements tended to be
more parochial. more focussed on one demographic group. you have the farm worker movement able to bring people together. i mentioned frank bart key the author of the book. he was at berkeley. why did he leave. that was the best public institution. why did he come to the fields of delano. there's other stories like this. marshall begans who is a lecture at harvard university. he's from bakersfield. he dropped out of harvard. to go join the movement. so that gives you a sense of gravity that the farm worker movement had in the 1960s. one of the things that gave is real gravity and power is the religious element. and it's open to all. it's non-excluive. that was something that people remember about the ideaism of the 1960s. that's what i want you to leave with when you look about the
text. this is an ideal document. it's painting a rosy picture of what kind of society, right, that farm workers want to envision for themselves. what are some other reactions to the text? >> i believe the reason this was so successful was because they were calling not just the farm workers in delano. they were calling farm workers from other states. negros, japanese. all those people. not just the people that were here. that is another reason it was so successful. >> yeah, again in terms of the books that i mentioned. the ufw was not just a movement in the strike thcentral valley. it is a national phenomenon. they're in texas, arizona, they're up in the midwest. it is regionally diverse. it's not just in delano.
although this is the epicenter in some ways. ip to open up to more discussion. but i want to also stress one point before i forget. when we think ant farm worker organizing another thing to remember, is that there were efforts to organize farm workers before 1965. but we don't really remember them. because they didn't succeed. so that's really critical. farm worker movements generally failed. for a variety of reasons. prior to to 1965 there was heavy organization from farm workers in the 1930s. but it kind of peters out for a variety of reasons. they don't last as unions. and this is what makes the united farm workers very significant. even today. they have a large presence. not only in organizing farm workers. they do a variety of things beyond organizing farm workers. one of the most impressive things they do is a they have a program that provides housing
for the elderly. and this is like you want to live there. i took a tour with cesars grandson and i was just so impressed by the kind of community that they're building for the retired. so rather than having a farm worker population that is not part of labor laws, in the 1960s. they're outside the law in many ways they don't have the same kipd kind of protection that industrial workers have. they're outside the scope of protection. they don't get social security. when you hit retirement age, do you have a safety net. no. you don't. you're at the mercy of your families. again the ufw in recent times has pyre pioneered the programs that provide retirement for farm workers. and it's a model program in my view. but again to round out that before we can open it up to
discussion. i want to finish the point i was making what makes the ufw his torically significant. they were the first union to successfully organize farm workers and sign contracts. ó survived they're around today.ived they're around prior labor unions were not. are not around. that i died off. what are other comments and reactions to the text from -- maybe folks in this row. maybe i can pick on one of my favorites former students. dell ya, could you maybe your guest maybe react to some of the things we talk about. or specifically the plan that we're talking about? >> well, i highly under lined the area with the that talked about the religion. the virgin the sacred cross and the star of david. and i liked how they emphasize how they wanted to make it known to the people that, you know,
they wanted to protect their workers from greed. when i thought of that i thought of the bible the what is in the religious text is that greed is one of the roots of all evil. so, by, you know getting all these religious people or just making it known that they are protecting the people and protecting them from the root of the greed. and making it known that hey anyone who, you know the star of david the sacred cross, they weren't bias. anyone was allowed to participate. and. >> no i actually really appreciate that point. two things i react to that. my advisor from is a man. he's actually going to be at
bakersfield college on may 5th. i hope you come. one of the books he published was called "the gospel of cesar chavez." he put together a compilation of speeches, documents. that demonstrate the catholicism. and the movement to and out look on life and philosophy. so if you read the beginning of the document it notes that cesar edited this. and what you're referencing there in my view the point about greed and how greed and the how do you opposer was biblical over tones. that hits the question of revolution. what's really being called for here is an overturning of an agricultural labor system, that's based on greed. and it's almost to redistribute that greed at the top to ordinary farm workers. that's the revolution that's
being called for. and the way that you do that the way you sustain a movement to challenge that is partly through religion. tha going to bring people together. you mention the image of the virgin, they used to have mass in the fields. how do you pull people together to run a strike and commit to that. don't they need to go to church we have church in the fields. you get priests to come to the field and give the communion. it's not just catholic priests. again this is some of the non-violent strategies that the union moved to make the revolution go. it was infusing that religious message. that's pretty radical. for some of you i know you didn't hit on this. i have to mention this. i will put a resource on the web page called the chavez special study report. done by the government and the
national park service. it has a list of historic sites in delano. for sochl me of you in the next weeks as you revise papers. one of the things that will make me happy is if you consider going to the sites. where the strike was called in 1965. and the church in delano at that time was very much divided. you had west of highway 9 you had the churches that were progressive with the farm workers. east of 99 you have the catholics allied with the growers. when you talk about religion, and how religion can be used to make the movement go. it's not a -- like any social organization it was in fact split by the movement. although now days we have robert kennedy high school. we have chavez high school.
and in some ways, the division within delano is not as prominent as it was. although, i don't know if you remember this, when robert kennedy high school got named or cesar chavez got named there was some resistance in the community to name the schools after of the individuals because it was a very devisive history. we know why chavez got a high skal named after him. but robert kennedy i don't know if i mentioned this in 1966 he was a senator. and he brought the senate subcommittee on migratory labor. and had hearings where people reported on the conditions in the field and strike, and there's a really famous exchange i can post a link for you online. where bob by kennedy his brother seen as the inheriter of the kennedy legacy. he tells the kern county sheriff
to go read the constitution of the united states. during the lunch break. because of the sheriff was arresting strikers preemptively before they had done anything. so they wouldn't do violence. that's unconstitutional. so it's a very famous exchange. it gives you a sense of why you have a kennedy high school. the legacy of the family to advancing the conditions of farm workers. we have a few more minutes left. and i feel especially from oral history there's a range of things that still haven't been mentioned. so let me kind of throw ideas out there and see if this triggers imagination. we have talked about fear which i thought was good. we talked about violence. we talked about supporters of the union. where's lydia. there she is. can you just say a little bit about the oral history that you did because i thought the person that you interviewed was wonderful. just say a bit about how you
came to it and what you got from the story. >> i interviewed a captain when they would do picket lines for chavez. he was very involved and he told me he came from arizona. and he used to work in the fields as well. and for some reasons he moved. and he went one day one of his cousins i believe invited him to go listen to cesar chavez. so he went and he listened to everything the words he had to say, like they impact him in a great way because he said that when he was sitting there listening to him he was thinking to himself this is me. this is my father. this is my uncles.
talking about farm workers. and that very same day he said he went to him after everything had finished and told him i'm in. i'm with you. and the nekts day he went and told his boss i can't work no more. and he talked about it was hard during the strike. because. >> five long years. >> like you said they were living on toe nations and stuff like that. to him it was a very big privilege to be able to work next to a person like him. because it impacted his life in a great way. to always strive for what you want no matter what comes your way or what people tell you. or how many things that put in front of you. to always strike. for whatever reason. and not give up. >> i story that you just
captured really speaks to what the man in the back brought up about fear. he had fear about joiping the movement. when he heard the words of chavez. once he heard him speak, he overcame that fear and he couldn't do anything but join the cause. and the oral history is really good because he talk abouts almost everything that's been brought up. he talks about the violence and some people on both sides were violent towards one another. cesar intervened. and did the fast and try to calm the situation. or he talked again about what you say about overcoming that fear. about joining a movement. so i think i really wish that -- i think this might happen in the future. i have doing this for four years where students in delano do oral history projects in my u.s. history class and california class. and i have them all. and i have contact with all my
students. and there's an effort at uc to build a central valley oral history project. and allow the scholarship that i mentioned the six books. none of them really talk about the farm workers movement at a grass roots level. about how ordinary people experienced the movement. they focus on the activists. the organizers, but not necessarily ordinary people. grass roots people. i think that's what so rich about this project and in the case of your individual, that's a really important history. i'm glad you put me in contact with him. my hope too is that one day you could read everyone els. or have access to them. my suspicion is that within four to five years there's going to be a digital data base. there's going to be recruitment efforts to capture the narratives. people are getting older. people are not living, they're dying. they have things in garages that
need to be digitized. i encourage you to capture the family history. they're so rich. let me ask a couple questions for my philippine students or who interviewed fill p. could you comment about how other ethnic groups surface within the plan. or generally when you did the oral history. what are some of the issues in your mind that philippine o farm workers. similar to the story of mexican farm workers. >> where are my students who talked to philippine noes. >> i interviewed my grandpa. and he was a farmer for like
since 1997. when he came here. and mexicans were, like, they're so nice to them and they don't -- >> you're doing fine. >> they treat them like they're one of them. they're like united and they work together. and just like there's no racial s segregation and everything. >> your oral history talked about inner ethnic harmony. absolutely. that's a big theme when we're talking about the story of farm labor in delano. and the united farm workers is called the united farm workers because it was the merging of the national farm workers association which was prominently mexican.
so those two groups joined and became the united farm workers. philippines and mexican. >> i know you interviewed a philippine o. how does it intersect. >> my dad worked in the field for five years. from 82 to 89. seven years. he didn't experience any hs tillty or anything. he told me about the pay. it was like a $1.65 an hour. and a bonus of 28 cents per box or whatever. they got bonuses for how many boxes they could fill. >> a will the of folks who interviewed family members talked about wages. one of the pieces of advice i gave to you. when you go into the revision process, you might want to hammer down dates.
because chronology is important. the chronology that we talk about tonight, 1965 with the launch of the delano grape a strike and mostly 1970 a five year strike in boycott when the ufw gets contracts in 1970. much of the oral history that people in the room did is about the 1970s. and the 80s. and so you might want to go back to your subjects and just make sure you can clarify the dates that you're actually talking about. again mostly we have been talking about the hay day of the united farm workers. certainly 1965 to 1970 would be the high point of farm labor organizing when the ufw has the most clout. but as the 1970s and 80s come along, the union evolves. it is not as successful in organizing farm workers after the late 1970s and 80s. as are many labor unions in the
united states. the rise of conservatism. ronald reagan. there was a backlash. which we'll talk about more next week. you want to hammer down those dates a little bit more with your subjects to clarify time. so i want to say just a few concluding synthetic remarks before we take our break. so, again, if you recap what we talked about tonight. we talked about family history. about how family history can be a lens into studying topics of race, ethnicity, civil rights, labor in the american west. and all of you have done that. all of you now are little baby historians. doing this great research project. and i highlighted myself about how my own research process started with something very similar. like trying to figure how my own family how the story connects to bigger themes american history.
in this case the farm worker movement. the other point to note is about primary sources vs. something called secondary sources. all of you now have unearthed a great primary source. i'll bet i'm not going to poll you. i'm willing to bet whoever you interviewed has a photo album. maybe they even had it out. go back and look at the photo album. everyone has to do revisions that are more targeted. if your subjects have photographs or historical documents that you want to include or talk about or analyze in your paper, that's something i strongly encourage you to do. and again know that in the coming years there might be a very aggressive effort led by bakersfield college and myself and other organizations to get all of that stuff digitized for
the future. 20 years from now, 30 years from now when people are trying to write the story of farm labor. those people that you interviewed might not be around. who's going to guarantee the materials are preserved. hopefully you. but again to recap, we talked about family history, we talked about the union, but more in a way to highlight my own research which is again the argument that the civil rights movement the labor rights movement was more broader than just questions of farm labor. locally. and in order to understand the gravity of the unions muchlt you need to understand it was connected to other struggles for civil rights and racial integration here in concern county. and especially in bakersfield. to close with the plan of delano. again you should read this document as symbolizing the idealism of the farm worker movement. bringing people together of all faiths of all ethnic racial groups. it's also a remembering of the
struggles and triumphs of the mexican people. this is called a plan of delano referencing previous plans that were issued by people of mexican decent. in protest. so again you think about that as symbolizing thefn! 1960s and th people that you interviewed whether it was the 60s or 70s experienced that. maybe they were part of the movement or maybe they were outside of that movement. and if that's the case, go back to your subjects in the nebs month as we're fnished this class. and now that you're more versed on the idealism of the movement, engage with your oral history subject and ask more questions. and try to figure out what was their world view. if it was driven by fear take it one step further. they had to feed their families. it was pure economic. maybe they saw the movement as being too idealist. you'll never know unless you ask
the question. i thank you again for participating. again i aploud you for yoapplau your participation tonight. thank you so much. >> you're watching american history tv. on c-span 3. we'll continue our look at latino history and the civil rights movement in just a moment. tuesday night more lectures in history. this time we'll focus on religion and impact on american revolution. join us at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on c-span 3. c-span voices from the road. at the national conference of state legislature summit in boston. asking attendees what's the most important issue to your state.
>> one of the biggest issue that's facing the great state of maryland is the issue a problem of juvenile justice. in the great state of maryland we have over 50 of our youth that are incarcerated for life without the possibility of parole. i'm going to be working very, very diligently with the legislature to put in place a bill that will allow for these juveniles to have a hearing. that is one of the biggest issues that we see facing us in the great state of maryland. the second has to do with opiates. the use of opiates in the state of maryland is killing our young people, our old people. it has no respect for age, creed, state -- i mean behavior, mental illness. all of these things are important, but opiate is the
leading cause of deaths in the state of maryland. so we're trying to do whatever we possibly can to eliminate this problem, and that's one of the issues that we're going to be looking at as we move into the legislative session. >> one of the most important issues we're facing in new york right now is rail safety. we have over 5,300 rail crossings in new york, and we've seen unfortunately fatalities increase over the past few years while nationally those numbers have decreased. i've passed legislation that would require an inventory of the 5,300 rail crossings so we could prioritize and know which ones are most deadly, which ones need a simple amount of work, and which ones need to be eliminated all together. when we look at the 5,300 all together, it is too awesome of a task to tackle. by focusing in and making sure we can add new technologies and eliminate the most deadly, we can make a big difference in
increased safety for everyone. congress has allocated money. now we need to put our plan in place to access that funding for new york to make our rails and make our motorists safer all together. the issue that's most important in my state is job growth and economic development. there aren't many problems that a good job can't solve, and if we were to have that it allows for the parents to then provide the kind of income and resources for the children to provide them with a good education, and that allows them to lift off and do a lot of pleasant things and wonderful things throughout their entire lifetime. job growth and economic development are the two things that our state drastically needs. thank you. >> currently the most important issue facing our state is the fact we don't have a budget. right now towns are preparing to go into the month of september, kids are going back to school, college is back in session, and our municipal aid is being cut drastically without a budget. the governor's executive order doesn't give him the power to fund our schools, to increase
education funding for higher ed, it doesn't help our state employees and we need this budget now and as soon as possible. >> and i'm here to just make a statement about what we need from our leaders in washington d.c. what we're looking at in ohio, we need to take care of our infrastructure. that's our primary issue that's facing not only ohio but all across the united states, and we need washington to focus in on infrastructure. our roads are crumbling and we need trump and our legislators to start focusing on that issue. >> "voices from the road" on c-span. you're watching american history tv. 48 hours of programming on american history every weekend on c-span3. follow us on twitter @cspanhistory for information on our schedule and to keep up with the latest history news. next on "lectures in
history, we take you to the university of illinois where professor mireya loza teaches a class on latino labor movements in the 20th century. she discusses the bracero program which brought workers mostly in the ago ricultural industry. >> we're almost towards the end of the semester, and because we are i decided to really talk to you guys today about what i research. so you guys had my piece on the alien braceros. i want us to think about the class today in two parts, one in which we're going to cover bracero history. i know we covered bracero history in sort of broad sketches, but this time we will talk about it a little bit more in depth. my gift to you, i can't let you walk out of a class with me without you guys knowing bracero history really well. second thing we're going to do